AI-GENERATED SUMMARY

This sermon concludes a two-part series on Molech worship, specifically analyzing the prohibition in Leviticus 18:21 against letting seed “pass through” to Molech2. Tuuri disputes the view held by James Jordan that Molech worship strictly requires the physical killing of children, arguing instead that the Hebrew term abar (pass through) signifies a transfer of ownership or dedication to a false king or state3. He asserts that while physical sacrifice (burning) did occur, the essence of the biblical prohibition covers the transfer of offspring to a pagan jurisdiction3. Consequently, placing children in the state public school system constitutes a modern form of Molech worship by transferring covenant children to a godless authority for instruction and dedication4,3.

SERMON TRANSCRIPT

Then shall I delight myself in the Lord, and I will cause you to light upon the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Jacob thy father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.

Let’s pray.

Almighty God, we thank you for calling us in the convocation the Sabbath day to rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ and indeed to rejoice in his finished work as our covenant mediator. We acknowledge before you, Lord God, that we come before you as sinners having no internal intrinsic righteousness in ourselves, but the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to our account on the basis of his work and his resurrection and you enlivening faith in us to believe in him.

We thank you Lord God that we have therefore peace with you and we can come before you this day to sing praises to you with open ears to hear your word and to leave this day with open hands to do your work. We thank you for the kingdom of Jesus Christ. We rejoice in it and in its assured expansion throughout the created order. And we pray Lord that this day we would worship you for that kingdom that we would ensure our place in that kingdom as we move in obedience to your scriptures that we receive instruction this morning from our king of kings and lord of lords Jesus Christ in whose name we pray. Amen.

Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the name of the Lord. Praise him oh ye servants of the Lord. Ye that stand in the house of the Lord in the courts of the house of our God. Praise the Lord for the Lord is good. Sing praise under his name for it is pleasant. Please be seated.

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful, but his delight is in the law of the Lord. And he shall be like the tree planted by the rivers of water. His leaf also shall not wither. The ungodly are not so. Therefore, the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous.

Sermon scripture is Leviticus 18:21. Leviticus the 18th chapter verse 21. And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech. Neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God. I am the Lord.

The younger children may be dismissed now to go to their Sabbath schools.

We continue this morning with a series of messages we’ve been going on for quite some time now, going through our church’s confessional statement and covenant document. We are near the end of that statement. We’re at that portion where the person that covenants into membership at Reformation Covenant Church covenants to raise his children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

We will spend this Sunday and one more Sunday, two weeks from today on that particular topic and then move on the following Sunday, the first Sunday in August to consideration of the Sabbath, which is the last statement in our covenant document.

Last week we had the third in this series of talks on the education of children, the nurturing of them. We began a two-part talk then on Molech worship, and we’ll continue with that this morning, although the outline has been substantially changed from what I passed on last week. Remember, last week I taught the first point of a four-part outline. The other points have been changed this week. My wife tells you that outlines are supposed to read like sentences as you go through. And so I got around that difficulty this morning by making the three central points of the talk, points two through four, the same sentence, all three of them. You’ll notice, however, that there are different words underlined in those three points.

We’ll begin this morning by reviewing what we talked about last week, and we’ll move on to Molech worship. Passing the seed to Molech. Talk about the implications of what does that mean? Passing one’s children through the fire to Molech. Next, we’ll talk about Molech worship as passing the seed to Molech. And we’ll emphasize there the word the seed. What is it that we’re not to pass to Molech? And then we’ll conclude with a brief discussion since we spent all of last week on this discussing what Molech was, what the implications of that worship are. And then talk about some applications for today.

There are several reasons for going through a study of Molech worship. And I mentioned so last week the fact that people that we read and respect have addressed the idea that public education is Molech worship in our society today others including James B. Jordan have said well that isn’t quite true that’s misleading to argue from that analogy and we’ll address one of the statements from Mr. Jordan’s short article on this as we get into the middle of the talk this morning. That’s one reason.

A bigger reason though is that the scriptures tell us positively as we began this series with the great Shema, or Hear, O Israel educate your children in the faith. To hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy might, with all thy mind. And then you’re to teach these things unto your children, everything that’s commanded of us.

And we talked about the necessity then of education of children in terms of covenant participation. Participation of the covenant of grace implies that a person who is saved by God will move on to instruct his children in the faith. You have a positive commandment then that we’re to rear our children in the admonition and nurture the Lord.

Negatively though Molech worship is a specific prohibition about an activity involving our children and it’s a prohibition that’s repeated in Leviticus 18:21 and then Leviticus 20 the first five verses. So God doesn’t repeat himself for no reason. It’s an important thing for us to recognize that it’s a danger to us. And we talked last week about the history of Israel, God’s covenant dealings with the nation of Israel in the land of Canaan.

And we saw as they were continually plagued by the Ammonites who were specifically the people that worship Molech and they themselves continually fell in and lapsed into the worship of Molech. So, it’s important for us not to allow ourselves to fall into that same error and same sin. It’s important to recognize too, as we talked about last week, we’ll talk about it more this week. There’s severe restrictions upon Molech worship.

The person that offers his son or is given to Molech is to be stoned to death, which is an indication of, of course, expulsion from the covenant community that the civil magistrate an ideal situation would be not allowing such public worship of the idol Molech. So it’s an important thing for us to consider for both several of those reasons that I’ve mentioned.

Well, last week we began with a historical overview of the Ammonites. The scriptures tell us very clearly in 1 Kings 11:7 that Molech was the god of the Ammonites. And so we had to understand the Ammonites to understand Molech worship. We began with the history of Ammon himself, of course, who was a product of the incestuous relationship of Lot with his daughters. We went on to look at the prohibition of Ammonites from the congregation of the Lord because when the people of Israel were brought out of Egypt going into the promised land, they were given specific directions by God to avoid the Ammonites.

They would not make war with them because they were related as it were through Lot. And yet the Ammonites having been given a degree of grace by God in that respect rejected God’s grace and instead hired with the Moabites Balaam to curse the people of Israel. And so God then demanded they be excluded from the congregation of Israel for 10 generations.

Both those instances in Ammon and then in the entrance of the people into the land, Ammonites were those people that rejected the grace of God. After all, Lot was given a degree of grace by getting the instructions to leave Sodom and Gomorrah before it was destroyed. That grace was then perverted by his daughters who had this incestuous relationship. The grace of God shown to the Ammonites when the Israelites moved into the promised land was also denied by them and instead they moved further and further away from God.

We talked about just then, the time of the Israelites there. The important thing we wanted to remember about that was that the tyranny of Molech, the tyranny of the Ammonites over the nation of Israel was preceded by the worship of the God of the Ammonites, Molech. And that’s important for us to recognize in this country, if we have tyranny today, it’s because we’ve worshiped false gods.

He talked about the time of Saul in a very important verse. We’ll go back to this verse later in this talk this morning, dealing with Nahash, the king of the Ammonites. Nahash means serpent. Nahash was the serpent king of the Ammonites. He was as it were a Molech since the Ammonites worshiped the king, the civil state. Nahash was the head of that civil state. And the Israelites again fell into the worship of the civil state. When they rejected God as king over them, it said instead and specifically in relationship to Nahash, “Now we want a king like the nations around us. We don’t want God as our king.”

They also had rejected the grace of God because remember God had given them many victories over pagan kings around them. Remember when God had gone into captivity for his people in the form of the ark that he had been brought into the temple of Dagon and won that battle as it were single-handedly without any human intervention at all and the Philistines gave back the ark to the Israelites. You remember that the conclusion of his encounter with the god of Dagon, Dagon lay as it were with his head severed.

This stone god that was made lay with his head severed by the ark as it were. When the ark left the place he had fallen down. His head had broken off and picturing the fatal head wound to be given eventually to Satan himself by our Lord Jesus Christ. But Israel rejected then the grace of God and the victories that he gave them and then really wanted a king among the nations that king like the Ammonites had. And so they rejected God as king.

God still though didn’t give them a king like the Gentiles around him. He gave them first a godly king, King Saul. But Saul also then became a Molech exchanging the worship of God as it were for his own will and for the will of the creature denying the creator-creature distinction. Saul also rejected God’s grace and Saul’s end was like the end of Dagon. When Saul was finally killed himself in battle, Philistines cut off his head, took that head back to the temple of Dagon and put it before Dagon.

Poetic justice as it were and God’s justice and judgment inflamed upon Saul, saying Saul had become another Dagon or another Molech. David successfully battled the Ammonites and we talked about the verse last where it says that David that put the Ammonites after he conquered them under the sword made him pressed with brick kilns and under the saws in spite of what other commentators may say I believe that is a picture of hell that the cutting apart of the sacrifice of people that reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and then them passing through the fire that verse is preceded by the way with saying that David took the crown off of the king of the Ammonites many people many commentators believe it means he took the crown off this the statue of Molech itself although it does say that David put that crown upon himself.

Apparently weighed about 65 lbs. But again, we see there the settling as it were of the head or the crown from the Ammonite God by a picture of Jesus Christ, the covenant mediator revealed through one of the Old Testament stories that of David.

But then David’s son Solomon, we talked about him and how he had again rejected and introduced again the love and practice of Molech worship. Didn’t say he engaged in Molech worship, but he built an idol to Molech. He built a place for him to be worshiped. And we talked then about the fact that Solomon’s son Rehoboam again specifically because Solomon had rejected the true worship of God and had turned to the worship of Molech and other gods. God said his kingdom will be taken from him except for one tribe.

Solomon’s son became another form as it were of Molech saying if you think Solomon is a hard taskmaster I am twice as hard and rejected the counsel of the older men in his community and took the counsel of the young men and became as it were another Molech after his father had introduced the worship back into Israel.

Jehoshaphat. We talked about Jehoshaphat’s victory over the Ammonites. The important thing there he remembered was that God himself won that victory again and that worship, the singing of the people and the praise that accompanied the defeat of the Ammonites by God. We said there that worship then is essential to victory as we look for victory over pagan doctrines and pagan gods.

We talked about King Josiah and about Nehemiah. He said that the destruction of Molech worship and that’s one thing that Josiah did specifically was he desecrated where Molech had been worshiped. We see that the defeat of state worship is absolutely essential to the task of Christian reconstruction and it was in the time of Nehemiah as well to avoid the Ammonites and the worship of their god.

So we talked about Molech worship in man history as a rejection on the part of Molech worshipers of God and his grace, the rejection of God as their king and turning instead to another king to Molech, the civil the civil state deified in its head of state.

Today we want to talk about we want to proceed then away from the historical aspect to a certain degree and go to the case law itself to the laws in Leviticus 18 and 20 that specifically prohibit Molech worship and talk about some implications of those texts before us. What did it mean to pass the seed through to Molech?

Jim Jordan in saying that it is not proper to reason from Molech worship to public education one of the reasons and we read this before I believe was this. He said “Second offering children to Molech meant killing them and offering their blood in a religious rite of worship to an idol. Christians who send their children to public school are engaging in an action which is considerably less serious, though still very serious.”

Well, if he’s correct, of course, if Molech worship meant and only meant the killing of children, the passing through of their blood and fire and the burning of the children up in worship, then you could his point would be valid. But is it correct? Let’s look at the text and find out.

Now we know that some aspect of Molech worship did in fact involve the burning of children. Specifically in Jeremiah 7:31 we read there that they built the high places of Topheth which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire which I commanded them not neither came into my heart. So God says simply that the people of Israel did at some point in time actually burn their children in the fire.

And there are historical accounts of the fact some people believe that Molech was a large bronze statue that was hollow. A fire would be heated in front of this big pit either under it or right in front of it. And this bronze statue would have these arms out like this and the head of I think a ox or a lamb. I’m not sure. This thing would be superheated by this fire would be hollow. The children then, depending on which story you listen to, would either be killed or they put be placed alive onto these bronze arms of Molech which are incredibly hot which would eventually kill the child.

It said that the priests, I remember we’re talking about the covenant people of Israel here. It said that the priests during those particular services would beat drums and sing so that the people couldn’t hear the screams of the children. Certainly in the Bible practice and certainly it has happened historically in the covenant people where they actually did burn their children.

Now remember there that the place say we talked about this a little bit last week the place specifically where this took place was Topheth in the valley of the sons of Hinnom. And that’s important for us too because said before the Topheth comes from the word that meant a smiting and the vowel points of the word shame were put into that word to make it Topheth so there’s a connotation the saying that king worship is shameful to have become a place of smite and of shame this is a common device really in Hebrew language it may not seem so to us.

Another example of that according to some commentators is the word Ashtaroth. It believes that the name Astarte that goddess had those same vowel points put in made it Ashtaroth basing the shame idea with that false goddess. Ishbaal is also called in the scriptures Ishbosheth and the word Baal there is converted into shame. Same thing is true of Merib-baal or Mephibosheth. So it’s important for us to recognize this is a place of tremendous shame.

So the very name itself in holy scripture is associated with shame and a great contempt by God for what was occurring there. It’s also good for us to remember that this was in the valley of the sons of Hinnom. You certainly have heard of the word Gehenna. Well Gehenna comes from this word Hinnom. The valley of the sons of Hinnom. Gehenna. Gay Hinnom. The valley of the sons of Hinnom. And so Gehenna itself which came to be a word to conjure up images of hell with the covenant people including in the New Testament was based upon this Valley of Hinnom.

There was a continual burning going on there. Apparently, as we said, Josiah when he desecrated, some people believe he made into a big garbage heap. It certainly became that by the time of our Lord. There’s just continual burning going on. Trash piled into it. And you have this sight of Gehenna or hell.

Well, again, this pictures to us the awfulness of Molech worship. And as we said, the scriptures do say that historically the people of Israel did immolate some of their children in the fire. But is that what’s prohibited when it’s law. Certainly, that’s prohibited. But is that all that’s prohibited? I don’t think so.

Specifically in Leviticus 18:21, we read a couple of minutes ago, you notice it says there, “Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech.” And for those of you who have Bibles that indicate where there’s been an inclusion by the interpreter or the translator, you notice the words the fire is included there by the translator. The only word put in there is this path. Okay, the word fire is not in the Hebrew text. It’s assumed on the basis of passing something to Molech. But that’s an assumption that is not in holy scripture.

Now, the word pass is used in a more generalized sense in other places of scripture. This specific Hebrew word which is Hebrew meaning to transfer into the possession of another. A good picture of that is in Numbers 27:8 where the daughters of Zelophehad had wanted to know about their inheritance. And they set it up so that the inheritance of their fathers would pass unto them. It says there the inheritance would pass unto these daughters of Zelophehad. That same word passed there. In other words, inheritance would be transferred into the property or possession of another.

The same word, the Hebrew word is used in Exodus 13:12 where we read that the people of Israel were to set apart unto the Lord the firstborn of cattle and beasts and men. That word set apart is the same Hebrew word and again has this connotation of transferring into the ultimate possession of somebody else in this case God and positively.

And so the word here when we read that the people of Israel are not to pass through the fire their children to Molech the implications of that are to transfer over to him by way of possession. Now certainly if you burn your child up that would be a complete transfer as it were to that God. But that isn’t the only thing that could effect that transfer in the case of the firstborn of the sons of Israel for instance they were not burned you remember they were by substitution the Levites and God used them for a special purpose they were consecrated or dedicated unto him as it were now in the parallel portion of the law Leviticus 20:2 it simply says that if any of you give any of your seed unto Molech he shall surely be put to death the there is simply the Hebrew word to give to Molech.

And again, you have this idea of transferring a possession or ultimate control over this particular thing you’re giving or passing through to another entity which is Molech. And so the prohibition in the law itself is much broader than the idea of merely setting something on fire. Now, that’s a subset, as we said, of passing something over way of possession, but it does not include all that’s involved.

Rabbinic commentaries on these verses and on Molech worship in general are absolutely unanimous in rejecting the idea that Molech worship always meant immolation or burning up by fire. Rabbinic commentary said instead that what we had here was fibrillation. Now my wife has also other people giving me a bad time by using big words. Fibrillation certainly is a big word and in fact it’s not even in most dictionaries anymore but I chose to put it in the outline as point B.

Fibrillation of children. Fibrillation simply means to cause something to be consecrated by burning through smoke or some sort of heat process, something like that. February is of course based upon that same word. Febrile conditions or febrile illnesses are probably common to some of the nurses we have here having to do with temperature or fever. February was the month of consecration. That’s where that term February came from.

Consecration of people to whatever pagan deity or to God himself. And so Fibrillation of children was a passage through the rabbis thought between two pillars of fire or two smoking things. The children will be taken through the midst of those things and through the smoke and through going through the midst in between these two fires be consecrated or fibrillated to the god Molech. And so there was the idea of consecration not simply the idea of immolation.

Keil by the way quote that and seemed to affirm that probably was the case. Calvin himself his editor notwithstanding by the way who says he must be wrong here. Calvin commenting on Jeremiah The passage of Jeremiah dealing with Molech worship says the same thing that although occasionally they would actually go so far as to burn their children. What’s really prohibited here is the giving of children in any way sense or any way or sense or shape over to the god Molech for his purposes to transfer ownership.

And that generally that was more often the case. The children will not be burned but will be consecrated to Molech. Another Dutch commentator says that The only thing that’s really clear from the passages in Leviticus is that the seed became the property then of and were devoted to the service of Molech. Okay, that’s the essential meaning of giving or passing something through to this God became the property of for his service.

And sometimes that might mean the actual immolation of the child. More often than not, it did not mean that. The Encyclopedia of Judaica on these passages says that Molech worship was basically the transfer of Jewish children then to paganism. Okay. Now remember that it says any of that I seen here and it did not mean that every child would necessarily be passed through these fires. A child would represent the household or the clan or the tribe and again with the other sacrificial systems that we see both in the valid ones and invalid ones.

The part stands for the whole and so that all the children of the people offering up their this particular child would be seen in this one sacrifice of this child for the purposes of Molech and his worship.

We’ll talk more about the idea of immolation or fibrillation in a little bit when we talk about another passage of the implications of the seed. But for now, I’m just asserting that the passage itself gives a broader classification than simply the immolation and that is the consecration of children to the purposes of Molech.

Now let’s move on to the third point which is the passage of the seed to Molech the seed itself. That is the specific word used in these case laws here in Leviticus. It doesn’t say your children. It says thy seed. And I think God is very specific here as he was specific in the sense of passing or giving over to Molech. He specifically uses the word seed instead of children. Why is that?

Well, the first point we want to make about these children of the seed is that it’s God’s children in seed. After all, we don’t believe that the children belong to the state or to Molech. We don’t believe the children belong to the parents. All believe the children born to God. And that’s based upon the scriptures in Ezekiel 16:20 specifically. It says that the people of Israel had taken thy sons and thy daughters whom thou hast born unto me, God says, and these thou hast sacrificed. So it’s bad enough if you had them when they were yours and you did this terrible thing with them.

But in point of fact, these children you bore were unto me, my seed. God says, my children, and you’ve taken and sacrificed to an idol. In Malachi 2:15, we’ve talked about this verse often in this church, that God, it says there made the two one in terms of marriage. For what purpose? That he that God might seek a godly seed. And so, the propagation of the race is important in terms of God’s purposes. And of course, ultimately, what’s talked about here in terms of a godly seed is the seed of the woman that would come forth finally in time in Jesus Christ to deliver all of the seed of Adam as it were from the curses of God due to those people that reject God in his worship.

The seed ultimately pointed to Jesus Christ, God, man, and history. But in light of that, then the seed was specifically said to refer to God’s children owned by him to be used for his purposes. Remember that Abraham the father of the covenant line as it were here was chosen by God because God knew that he would command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord. Those were the conditions of the covenant that was given to Abraham that he might keep his children pure to the way of God.

And of course, Abraham was the first one tested as it were with the dedication or consecration of the son as it were by fire. Remember that God told Abraham to take Isaac up and to give him as a sacrifice to God. But God of course provided a substitute for him. But the point was that God was doing two things there. One, he was putting through the coming seed, Jesus Christ, who would be the covenant mediator.

But he was also claiming as his own the covenant seed of man, all of man’s offspring. as it were, God’s holy possession to be used for his purposes. And if God sends some of our children off to war, for instance, and they die, they’re doing that because of God’s purposes and for his glory and our God has the right to command his creatures in whatever way he sees fit for his glory. And we know from the scriptures that if we’re called according to God, that will also be for our benefit and for our well-being in God’s sight.

And so the seed refers first of all to God’s children owned by him. David’s children in the in the commentary in the book of Revelation says that the basic war of history is between the seed of the woman and the seed of Satan. And Satan, and this is a kind of a large theme you could think of yourself this rest this afternoon perhaps, but throughout the history of man, Satan is always seeking to destroy the seed of the woman.

And certainly the giving over of God’s seed as it were to Satan or a subset of Satan, Molech, state worship, is certainly the giving away of the covenant seed for ungodly purposes and as it were cooperating with Satan in the destruction of seed. It’s God’s children and God’s covenant line.

Now, it’s interesting that this talking about the seed of God is also included in the context of sexual sins. In Leviticus 18 21 that we just read, it is preceded and followed by prohibitions on various degrees of consanguinity or various degrees of sexual intercourse with relatives or with neighbor’s wife or with a person of the same sex etc.

It’s in the context of sexual sin and that is important for us to recognize also the use of the word seed there. It’s thought by me that what’s being talked about here is not just the children that you already have but the children that are in your loins as it were. In other words, the rabbis interpreted this that to marry an unbeliever and specifically to marry an Ammonite was to be giving your seed to Molech or to king worship.

And so the prohibition against intermarriage between God’s people and the people that worship a different god is also seen as prohibited in this. Calvin comment on the duty of parents with their children says that if a person goes and gives his daughter to an unbeliever to a wicked man to a naughty pack as he says there is not one spark of honesty in him whose life is wholly out of order.

I make the silly sheep a prey and cast it into the wolf’s throat. And what cry is that? Is it not all as one as if I sacrifice my daughter unto Molech? Yes. For he draws her away from obedience unto God to put her into the hands of the devil and to turn her to all naughtiness.

The Encyclopedia of Judaica I quoted from earlier saying that Molech worship involved the transfer of children to paganism went on to say that transfer of children was accomplished either by delivering them directly to pagan priests or by procreation through intercourse with a pagan woman. The Book of Jubilees, powerful book, stated that intermarriage or rather the marrying off of one’s children to pagans with the sin of Molech. And so when I first read Calvin’s commentaries on giving your children to Molech worship, giving your children to pagans as Molech worship. I thought maybe he was just using a figure of speech and hadn’t thought through. He probably has thought through very well.

And the giving of our children over to ungodly pagans to marry is as it were Molech worship as well. Or to give our seed as it were to a pagan wife is also Molech worship.

Now the context of the seed also however is that of the future and this is found in chapter 20 verse 6. Verses 1-5 talk about the prohibition of Molech worship in verse 6 goes on to say in the immediate context “The soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits and after wizards to go whoring after them. I even set my face against that soul and cut him off from among his people.”

There’s a correlation here. We said last week that Calvin correlated the prohibitions against Molech worship with enchantments with wizardry with concerning with familiar spirits all as being forms of idolatry. It’s interesting that historically speaking, Manasseh, we read in 2 Chronicles 33:6 says specifically, he did cause his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the sun at Hinnom.

Also, he observed times and used enchantments and used witchcraft and dealt with the familiar spirit and wizards. Keil and Delitzsch in commenting on the relationship of Molech worship to these other practices says this. Moses groups together all the words which the language contained for the different modes of exploring the future and discovering the will of God for the purpose of forbidding every description of soothsaying and places the prohibition of Molech worship at the head to show the inward connection between soothsaying and idolatry.

Possibly because fibrillation, that big word again, where passing children through the fire on the wish of Molech was more intimately connected with soothsaying and magic than any other description of idolatry.

I might go on to say that idolatry doesn’t just seek to know the future. Soothsayers don’t just seek to know the future. They seek to know the future for a purpose, which is to change things, which is to control the future, as it were. Doesn’t do any good to know what’s going to happen in the future if you can’t do anything about it. Soothsayers and enchanters and people that consult with them want to know the future for the purpose of changing it and controlling the future.

Now think about that passing your seed over to Molech as a way of controlling the future. And consider now the deified state, the pagan state that we have in this land. What’s the hallmark of the civil magistrate in America today? It’s not tyranny really. It’s not that you want people to be hurt. It’s nothing like that. It’s control. The reason that the civil state fears tremendously. For instance, homeschoolers ultimately is not really over what’s going to be taught or not taught. Even if we taught them with the state curriculum, they still wouldn’t like that fact. Why?

Because it’s a loss of control or power over children which represent the future. Okay? The deified state wishes to have the children given to it for the purpose of controlling the future in the same way that a soothsayer or an enchanter will seek to control the future by consulting through various spiritual demons or whatnot.

It’s interesting that Shafarevich in his book The Socialist Phenomenon makes the point that the socialist phenomenon is always accompanied throughout its various transmutations in terms of history whether it’s a religious socialism of the early heresies of the first century church or the religious heresies of the radical anabaptist the Reformation through its current supposedly secular form consistent theme throughout the heresy of socialism is the control of children.

Now, until I did the study on Molech worship, I thought basically that’s kind of an interesting phenomenon. I didn’t understand the connection. The connection is the socialist phenomenon. The people that engage in radical socialism. And I suppose we could that’s another reminder to me to talk about Ronald Sider coming a week from tomorrow. People within the church that consult with socialism are basically engaging themselves in idolatry, following another god.

And the god that the socialists follow is the god of the state. God as it were walking on earth in the form of the state. The voice of the people is the voice of God. And the attempt of the socialist group then to control education is an attempt to control the future based upon this idolatrous relationship with the rejection of God as king and turning to the civil state as king. It’s control of the future.

And so the seed is important to see in relationship to God’s ownership and the covenant line and sexual sin. But it’s also important to see that relationship to the future.

Which takes us to our third point which is Molech himself and I’ll just go over this briefly since we talked about this particularly last week in somewhat more detail. Molech’s worship we said that the seed refers to children and also the future generation and also then the future of the covenant line itself. All those things are encompassed in the seed.

We see that passing the seed through to Molech involves transferring ultimate possession of those that seed that future and those children to the purposes of who we’re transferring it over to for the purposes of controlling the future. Not simply a destruction of what we’re giving to them, but a given to them for their purposes.

By the way, I might just mention here that a lot of pagan sources say that when people were transferred over to the worship of Molech, they would be given up to be temple prostitutes if they were girls, for instance. Again, you can see the connection there to the forms of using the children for its purposes, Molech’s purposes.

But any event then so the seed and transfer of the seed means giving over possession of Molech for his purposes. The transfer of covenant children to something else. Now what are we transferring this seed to? We’re transferring the seed to Molech. And as we said last week that means king plus shame. And it meant the worship of the deified state and its chief civil magistrate the king.

Don’t get hung up when I use the word king. That word Molech is actually used of various forms of civil authority. We’re not talking here just about the form of king worship itself in terms of a king of the crown. We’re talking about any head of a civil state that ascribes to himself instead of to God ultimate control and sovereignty over the people. That state then has become a Molech ruler a demonized state.

The word Molech has implicit in it that form of particular form of worship. Molech worship is a subset of Baalism. Baalism is claiming anything else to be Lord other than the true God of Israel, the true Yahweh himself, the covenant God of Israel. Molech worship is a subset of a specific word used to depict a specific way of idolatry which is turning your children over the future over to the state or the civil government itself. King worship in a word.

1 Samuel 12:12. I want to just go back to this for a minute. It’s such an important verse in understanding Molech worship even though the word Molech isn’t used here. Remember Molech was the God of the Ammonites. 1 Samuel 12:12. when the people saw Nahash, the king of the Ammonites specifically, they said, “No, but a king shall reign over us when the Lord your God was your king.” They had a king.

They didn’t want to change from king to from something else to king worship. They wanted to change from God as being their king to Nahash being their king or a person like Nahash. And Nahash was the head of the civil state that worshiped the king. And so the children of Israel fell into Molech worship. When they fell into the idolatry of the Ammonites is when they transferred their faith on an ultimate god beyond the civil authority, beyond the ecclesiastical authority, beyond the family authority, transcended God to an imminent God in the form of the state itself. That is Molech worship.

And that’s what the people of Israel were tempted to do in 1 Samuel 12 and eventually accomplished when Saul departed from the faith. And then Rehoboam also became another Molech. As I said before, the end of Molech worship, Saul’s head severed in front of Dagon. The end of Yahweh worship, Jehovah worship is Dagon’s head severed in front of the ark of the covenant depicting the presence of God with his people. There are two ways. Psalm one we just read earlier said there are two ways for man. The way of obedience, the way of disobedience, the way of the righteous, the way of the wicked. And the people of Israel would go after the way of the wicked by specifically resorting to the worship of the state. Molech worship represented the deified state competing with God for ultimate control of the people.

So I would say then that Molech worship passing of the seed through to Molech could be summarized in this way. It is the transfer of God’s covenant children, not Jewish children, God’s covenant children to not simply paganism but to statism. The transfer of God’s covenant children to statism for its purposes.

Now, I said statism, and I guess I should be very careful here to understand what I’m saying. I am not saying there is not a legitimate function of the civil government. There is. We’ve stressed time and time again here that Romans tells us specifically that until the civil magistrate causes us to disobey a command of God, we will obey him. We’re obey him. Clear and simple. If you don’t obey the civil magistrate because you don’t like the idea of civil government or because it’s not convenient for you or for any other reason other than what God in the scriptures has clearly commanded us to do which is to disobey him when obedience to him would cause us to disobey God. If you disobey the civil magistrate for any other reason and get into trouble this church isn’t going to help you because we believe that it is important to walk in obedience to the civil government.

That’s not what I’m talking about. Statism is not simply of having a state over us. Statism is the belief that civil state that particular Congress that governor that president that civil head representing all the civil state will produce salvation for the people status I don’t believe are ultimately diabolic people in the sense that they want to see blood running in the streets they don’t want that they want a perfectly ordered civilization like an anthill totally controlled by the civil state and they want that because they absolutely believe that is the way to have peace and prosperity on the earth Now they’ve turned aside the worship of God. They exchange the truth for a lie. They suppress the truth. They

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COMMUNION HOMILY

No communion homily recorded.

Q&A SESSION

# Q&A SESSION TRANSCRIPT
## Reformation Covenant Church | Pastor Dennis Tuuri

**Q1:**
Questioner: You mentioned earlier that theonomists and reconstructionists are compared to Nazis in various media. Could you address that comparison?

Pastor Tuuri: Well, in point of fact, the Nazi state was a molatristic state—it existed for the purpose of serving the civil government, the German folk as exemplified in the civil state and its leader Adolf Hitler. Hitler loved public schools and used them to promote his version of national socialism, the subjugation of individual will to the collective state as the voice of God on earth.

We are not like Nazi Germany. The people who want to suppress Christian reconstruction, the people who want to suppress Christian schools in this nation—those people are Nazis in the same sense that Hitler was, in the sense that they wish to put all authority in the family under the jurisdiction of the civil state.

What we see in this country is a continuing growth and control of every area of life by the state. There are two primary vehicles they use: newspapers and public schools. They control what adults think about, and they take children away from their families to teach them according to state principles and practices—not to make them hate their families, but to make them see themselves only in relationship to the group and for the purposes of the civil state.

**Q2:**
Questioner: How did Abraham Kuyper approach this issue politically?

Pastor Tuuri: Kuyper began his political battle by first getting his theology right. After that, he started a Christian newspaper. Then he moved into the political arena, and the issue he focused on was education. He believed that state control of education was no better than the old church control of education, and that parents should have ultimate authority over their children’s education. That’s where Kuyper began his political battle.

Kuyper knew we were in an age of state usurpation of parental authority, and he battled it at that level. We have to do the same thing today. We see increasingly in the world around us the state’s usurpation of authority over every area of life. Child abuse has become the current vehicle by which the state tries to control every family in Oregon and throughout the United States—supposedly out of fear of child abuse, but what it really represents is the movement of a totalitarian state based upon ideas stemming from the French Revolution, where religious authorities and families are subjugated to civil authorities.

Nazi Germany exemplified this by using schools for its purposes. But even Aristotle himself said: “We must not suppose that any one of the citizens belongs to himself, for they all belong to the state and are each of them a part of the state, and the care of each part is inseparable from the care of the whole.”

The Moloch state seeks to deny the individual by making him see himself only in relationship to the group or to the civil state. That’s a basic error in their thinking.

**Q3:**
Questioner: What do historical figures like Lenin say about education?

Pastor Tuuri: Lenin said that education must serve the aims of the Soviet state, and it has done so for the last fifty years in the Soviet Union. But it isn’t just in foreign governments that we see this trend—it’s happening in this country as well.

Many courts are beginning to recognize this. One court opinion reads: “The primary function of the public school in legal theory at least is not to confer benefits upon the individual as such. The school exists as a state institution because the very existence of civil society demands it.”

You’ve heard this time and again in our newspapers in Oregon. Barely a week goes by without some reference to the Governor talking about his economic plans and the involvement of youth in those plans—because youth are, after all, a great asset of the state of Oregon.

Oregon itself in 1922 attempted to completely eliminate all private or non-state schools. Fortunately, the Supreme Court still had an ethic left over from true covenantal worship and struck down that Oregon rule. But that is invariably the direction we’re headed—more and more control of the state through educational institutions.

**Q4:**
Questioner: But aren’t there examples of good local control in Oregon public schools?

Pastor Tuuri: You’re right to point that out. I talked recently with a salesman who lives in Hubbard, a Mennonite man. He told me that at the public school there, the superintendent and over half the teachers are born-again believers. The principal and superintendent are both members of his Mennonite church. They have heavy influence, and it’s the only school district in Oregon where Gideon Bibles were allowed to be passed out.

But he also told me it’s becoming harder and harder every year to maintain any kind of local control. The state is forcing him to use more and more textbooks that are absolutely objectionable to parents. He has children three years old, and he’s certain that by the time they reach school age at eight, they won’t be able to attend those public schools. It creates great controversy for communities that have had long roots of local control and the teaching of Scripture in schools.

They just cannot believe what we tell them now about what public schools have become. But remember—that district was the only one in Oregon allowed to pass out Gideon Bibles. The only one. What’s happening is the eventual, absolute exclusion of God or any thought of God from the public schools—a totally secularized public school system for the purposes of the state.

**Q5:**
Questioner: What do humanists themselves say about their role in public education?

Pastor Tuuri: Several years ago, a man named John Dunphy said in The Humanist magazine: “Teachers will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever they teach, regardless of educational level—preschool, daycare, or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new, the rotting corpse of Christianity together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism.”

That’s what’s going on in the public schools today. They are becoming that battle room. Successfully, public schools have become pagan and secular, not working as any rivals in the form of Christianity—as we saw in the Supreme Court decision several weeks ago regarding creation versus evolution teaching. The Supreme Court said no, you cannot teach creation. They will not tolerate any rivals to the pagan theologies being taught in our public schools.

**Q6:**
Questioner: How does James B. Jordan’s comparison of public schools to Molech worship hold up?

Pastor Tuuri: Jordan’s objection to equating public schools with Molech worship and the burning of children may at first glance seem improper. But when you recognize that Molech worship was the transfer of covenant children to a deified state for its purposes, and you realize that education is an initiation for all of life—a teaching of a worldview whereby a person comes out of the educational system equipped and fitted for life in the community—

When we see that this initiation for life in the community is controlled by the state mentality and has been for one hundred years in this country, and that state mentality is becoming increasingly evident in everything done in public schools, it becomes clear that the public educational system is becoming a full-blown Molech to serve the purposes of the deified state.

It’s been a transitional process, but it is there, as clearly as the Scriptures imply it will always come up and bother the people of God as a continual threat to them and as an enticement to them to give their children away to false gods.

**Q7:**
Questioner: So what’s the solution—private schools and homeschooling?

Pastor Tuuri: Private schools and homeschooling are certainly worthy answers to this. But it’s not enough. If we believe that Christianity must compete with Molech worship, that the two cannot coexist in the land forever, that one will seek to obtain control of the other—as Molech worship has done in this country over Christianity—then we must recognize that simply to retreat from that system is not enough.

We must, as Josiah did, tear down the institutions of Molech worship. I don’t see how I could not say this in light of the last two weeks, the Scriptures we’ve gone through, and the realization of what’s going on in this country: we must root out the public educational system from our state. It is the vehicle whereby the radical state of the future—controlled by the state in every aspect of human life, controlled by the civil government—is being brought to pass.

We started this several weeks ago by quoting Hodge, who recognized one hundred years ago that the public education system would become the greatest engine for atheism the world has ever seen. He was right. It’s becoming increasingly manifest in our generation that this is exactly what’s happening, and we cannot coexist with it. We must pull our children out of those schools, and we must then seek eventually, long-term, to eliminate them from the land, because they are a great propagation of Molech state worship in our land today.

**Q8:**
Questioner: But many churches don’t accept this. How do we handle that?

Pastor Tuuri: I recognize that in many churches throughout this state, what I just said would not be accepted. One reason is that people don’t understand the ramifications of what’s going on. But there’s another reason: it’s not easy to pull your kids out of public school. It’s difficult for a whole variety of reasons, and we have to be sensitive to those reasons as we talk to people.

We have to help people understand why we’re saying this. We’re not saying it in a judgmental fashion about them. We’re saying it to help them salvage their children—to be used for the purposes of God and not for the purposes of the state. We’ve got to be willing as a church and as a covenant community to help people in whatever way is required—financially, supportively, through the establishment of a Christian school in our communities.

The Church of Jesus Christ in Oregon has to be willing to deal with people sensitively and sympathetically in helping them get out of the incursion of the state into their families through the public education system. But it must be done.

**Q9:**
Questioner: Didn’t T.S. Eliot say something relevant about this?

Pastor Tuuri: Yes. T.S. Eliot, who was not a theist, wrote in 1939 in *The Idea of a Christian Society*: “The choice between us is between the formation of a new Christian culture and the acceptance of the pagan one.” He saw it clearly. We already have the pagan one here. And he wrote that in 1939. That’s the choice that lies before us as parents and as a church today—we can either build for the future or we can accept the pagan culture we’re in.

**Q10:**
Questioner: What does Kuyper’s Free University teach us about this?

Pastor Tuuri: When Kuyper formed the Free University apart from state and church control, he preached on 1 Samuel 13:19, which says: “Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel, for the Philistines said, lest the Hebrews make them swords and spears.” The Philistines had an iron monopoly.

Until the last few years in this country, the public education system had an iron monopoly on education. And they still do in terms of institutions of higher learning. Unfortunately, most seminaries in this country have bought into the whole idea of state control over economics and education—anything that isn’t narrowly “spiritual.”

That’s the situation we find ourselves in as a generation. We are now in the process of building smiths again, of training smiths to train their children—to make weapons for Jehovah God, not in the sense of physical spears, but in the sense of children to go out as arrows filling our quiver, to do battle for Jesus Christ and the preaching of His gospel as it relates to every aspect of life.

The great Shema says that all your soul, all your mind, all your heart, and all your might must be given over to the worship of Jehovah God. And that’s what you must teach your kids—not some part of it, not just Sunday worship or your prayer life, but every part. That’s what we’re in the process of doing in this church and in this country: raising up people as smiths again to train up weapons of God.

**Q11:**
Questioner: What about Zephaniah’s warning about worshiping both God and Molech?

Pastor Tuuri: In the 7th century BC, Zephaniah wrote of the Jews of that time: “There were those who adored Jehovah, but they swore by Molech. They adored Jehovah God, but they swore by the state.” It’s sad but true that characterizes most of the churches of our day. They adore Jesus Christ. They love Jesus, but they continue to turn to the state as the answer to everything else in life—turning health, education, and welfare to the state. They swear by the state even though they love Jesus.

We have to teach people that to adore Jehovah is to obey Jehovah in all things, to worship Him by giving over all of our lives, all of our children, and all aspects to Him for His purpose—not for the purpose of the civil state.

**Q12:**
Questioner: What does Rushdoony say about waiting for the state to fix education?

Pastor Tuuri: Rushdoony, in *The Messianic Character of American Education* (which I would strongly recommend for reading), as well as in *Intellectual Schizophrenia* (a smaller, easier, more concise book), said: “Those critics of the schools who wait for the state or society to act worked on the same premise as the primacy of the group. If you wait for the state to do these things, you work on the same premise of the primacy of the group. The futility of their cause is thus ordained.”

Free men do not look to the state for the opportunities and results of freedom. Free men do not wait for the future—they create it. Jesus Christ has set us free. He didn’t set us free to wait for the civil government to give up control in various areas so we could practice Christianity. He made us free that we might worship Him in all we do.

And if we do that, He guarantees to us that the future belongs to us, and we belong to Him. The future is, after all, the history of God’s covenant people in obedience or disobedience to Him. We will either be like that solid pot from last week, or like that broken pot we smashed. Either way, it will be the story of our obedience or disobedience to God and His resultant judgments upon us.

We as a nation today stand in great peril. But as a church, we have the understanding of why we’re in great peril in this nation. We know the totality of Scripture as it relates to our lives. We know the incursions of Molech worship into our homes and into our covenant communities and our nation. We can create the future if we don’t wait for the state to do it. We can move out of the promises of God, recognizing that if we cast all our cares upon Him—as we ponder how this will play out in our homes or with our relatives—He cares for us, will take care of us, and will guard and protect us as we remain in covenant faithfulness to Him.

That’s the purpose we were given life by God—to serve Him and to create that future in obedience to Jehovah God and not to Molech’s state.

**Q13:**
John S.: This is the first time I’ve heard it put so directly. It seems like before we were just talking about taking our kids out of the system and building our own. Are you now saying we need to actively dismantle public schools?

Pastor Tuuri: Personally, I see that for at least a year or two now, the first priority is protecting our own children, because they are the future of our people. So it was important legislatively two sessions ago to take steps to protect them, which we did successfully. I believe we’re in a pretty good position now.

We had intended this legislative session in terms of the home school association to lay back and get homeschooling certified in terms of people not being homeschooled—not trying to do anything this session. Next session I began some talks with various people from around the state to try to think of ways to begin a process of dismantling the public education system.

I think we can do that in the attack. But long-term, I don’t believe the state has any business in public schools. There are other reasons besides what I talked about this morning. The financing of them, of course, is completely illegitimate or immoral as far as I’m concerned. But because of the threat that public schools and the Moloch state present to the people of God, I think ultimately we have to try to dismantle that system.

Of course, it’s certainly true that making it easier to homeschool, which we’ve done, is part of that process. I think conservatively we probably have ten thousand people in the state homeschooling now. If we solidify that base of operations—that group of people—they can later become a force that pulled out of the public school system to try to chip away at that edifice.

I had dinner with Steve Samson and Marshall Foster Friday evening. Marshall is now living in Oregon. I just wanted to talk to him and see what his plans were in Oregon. He thinks probably a lot of major changes are probably at least four or five years away. We’re in the process of building a base in the homeschooling community and all those people who, because of our bill successfully doing that, are encouraging other people they know to do it.

Let’s face it: when homeschoolers had to be disobeying the law or being in fear of disobedience to the law, most Christians coming out of dispensationalist thinking had nothing to do with it. It was just a scary thing for them. But now it’s basically completely legitimate in this state and easy to do. We have a tremendous number of people involved in it, and those people become part of the base for eventually chipping away at the edifice of public education.

**Q14:**
Tony: One thing that needs to be done is to make further inroads within the church itself regarding the obligation not to participate in Moloch worship. It would seem like out of that would come Christian school involvement. But I want to marshal your arguments further. Our job is to tear down a stronghold by bringing our thoughts captive to the Lord Jesus Christ through our persuasive arguments, prayer, and so forth—a positive war in that respect. A lot of that’s already going on, but unless the church is turned on this issue, and there are a lot of churches we all know too well with kids in public schools and too many people that don’t see this as an issue at all…

Pastor Tuuri: The fact that churches have to be turned on this issue as well is critical. Most churches are at least quasi-supportive of public education. There are people in other churches who have responded, I think, to some of the things we’ve done legislatively by forming political action committees to encourage parents to keep their kids in public school. They argue it’s a denial of the Christian faith to somehow isolate your children from the mainstream, that you’ll evangelize the pagans that way. That’s incredibly poor logic and incredibly inconsistent with Scripture.

The Scriptures tell us concerning our own children—as we said before with the Jehoshaphat example—that the worship of the people must be part of that victory, and that worship occurs, of course, in the context of institutional churches in Oregon. They have to be turned absolutely right.

We’ve got to begin to work with other churches if we understand the implications of the public school system. Of course, the work was being done for us by the public school system itself. Years ago, it was hard to reform and convince people that public education was a bad thing. After all, kids were being taught Scripture in public school. I have a textbook from 1870 where history starts off with a quotation about God’s work and the affairs of man, and history was taught from that perspective.

But they didn’t do this in a revolutionary style in terms of Paul throwing that revolution. They did it as you can construct it in terms of Fabian socialism—the idea that revolution is accomplished through small, minor changes. So it’s hard to get people to recognize what’s happening. But as the public school system becomes more and more self-conscious about its own evilness and deification of the state, churches that are Christ churches still, that have the light of Jesus Christ in them—not the phosphorescent essence of decay—we’ll see increasingly the need to pull a lot out of those state educational systems.

One reason we wanted to talk through certain portions of the confessional statements was for the purpose of documentation. We think it’s important the church have a document declaring what I said this morning or last week—basically in summary fashion—so that we could use that as a tool to instruct and to begin a dialogue with other churches in the area.

Herb Titus, for instance, speaking this evening, is probably one great place to start. Those people have understanding of the applicability of faith in many areas of life, and it would be good to begin a dialogue with the leadership there. There are many churches like that. Additionally, I’m convinced that this church will continue to spawn off other churches in the state. So I think that’s really important, Tony. And we should all be praying for that. If anybody has ideas and specifics on how to accomplish that, I’d sure like to know about it.

**Q15:**
Questioner: It seems like so much of this is a case of not adoring Jehovah, and it’s a situation where even church circles that homeschool don’t see the necessity. You don’t really want that…

Pastor Tuuri: Yeah, it seems like that has to be made a very conscious, self-conscious thing. I agree completely. What’s happening in public schools is that the whole system is intended to work in a certain way. There’s no understanding that we need to destroy it.

The point is that many of the churches want to clean up the public school instead of pulling out. Herb Titus has suffered that battle personally in various places where he’s going to speak on the need to get out of the public education system. He’s right, and that is a problem. Of course, as they’re cleaned up back to the days of the farms, they become more palatable. What’s happening is the temperature is increasing more and more—as the frog gets boiled to death in the water.

The frog is saying “I want out,” and some people want to say “Let’s just turn down the heat a little bit” instead of “Let’s get off this stove altogether.”

**Q16:**
Mr. Z.: I’d like to share with you something we have learned over the past year, something that has really come home to us and particularly in the area where we live. This is something that will sooner or later come to the attention of every professing Christian, particularly those who have come to see the truth of God’s Word in the sense that we’ve heard and spoken today.

We have been brought to our attention by people who are homeschooling children in our area the various non-Christian reasons why parents have pulled their children out of schools. Some of them say they don’t particularly like the curriculum. Others don’t like the social atmosphere of the schools. Others have lost control of their children in terms of discipline. Others say the child himself wants to get out of the atmosphere of public school. Every reason you can think of—almost—except by reason of the Word of God.

And this is true with people who profess to be Christians. One lady came and talked to my wife. She was just at her wit’s end, and her reasons weren’t Christian reasons. She was taking her child out of public school. It’s incumbent upon every one of us to take every opportunity to speak to our friends and neighbors who are encountering difficulties with children in public school and impress upon them the truth of God’s Word.

This is the reason why government schools are not the places for our children. You have to go to the very foundation of the philosophy of a public school: taking by coercion through taxes from your neighbors to educate your own children, and the laws of compulsory attendance. If you don’t deliver your children to the government or some satisfactory substitute in the eyes of the government, you’re going to be prosecuted for truancy, child abuse, and everything else today.

But we have to encourage and teach our friends and our neighbors, even the people in our own community here in the church. We can’t leave it for one person on Sunday to present the truth in a sermon or a message. We’re going to have to take the Word of God and live it every day of our lives in terms of communicating with our friends and neighbors.

Pastor Tuuri: Yes, that’s implicit in what we’re doing. Of course, we can’t reject the public school system out of some sort of reaction on our own either as individuals. We have to understand as servants of God why it commands us not to involve ourselves in that kind of worship. We have to be Bible scholars again, understanding this thing.

What I’m saying is it’s real easy at this point in time for the Christian religious right—supposedly as a knee-jerk reaction—to pull out of public schools for some reason. Mr. Z. mentioned drugs and alcohol, that sort of thing. We don’t want that to be true of ourselves in this congregation. We want our minds to be retrained to come to obedience to the thoughts of Jesus Christ so that we can communicate to people around us not on the basis of expediency but on the basis of sturdy principle from the Word of God.

When each individual then prays for the other churches these people are in, they’ll begin to get some of that from the pulpit. You have a responsibility, I guess basically to say: once you have knowledge from praying over the Scriptures, you have a responsibility to act on the basis of that knowledge and also to instruct others in that knowledge as well—not in a condemnatory fashion.

Originally, people have not thought this through; they are not self-consciously worshiping Molech in what they’re doing. They haven’t thought about the implications of that for themselves. You’ve got to be gentle with these people and tender with them, but you’ve got to lead them into the truth.

**Q17:**
Questioner: What’s your position? Are you supporting paying property taxes for public schools?

Pastor Tuuri: I don’t think so, and I’ll tell you why. Remember when Jesus was asked to pay the tax? He said, “Look, whose inscription is on it?” It was Caesar’s coin. The point was that Caesar had provided that for the people. He said we have to pay those taxes regardless.

Now, the point is that those taxes were undoubtedly used by the Roman government for all kinds of Molech purposes. Remember, the first-century church had a problem with Molech worship too, in the form of Caesar worship specifically. And so if Jesus said it was okay to pay that tax, then I’m sure we can say the same thing today.

On the other hand, it is true that we want, as much as possible, to seek the elimination of the property tax because it is the primary vehicle to finance public schools. I should also point out, however, that what you see going on in this state under the very intelligent and wise offices of Governor Goldschmidt is a slow movement away from reliance on property taxes toward general fund revenues to fund government schools. Property taxes are too close to the people—they can vote those things down. And so the state, in its attempt to become more statist in terms of the public education system in Oregon, seeks to withdraw the funding from local sources as well, to make it a general fund item.

One other thing: some people have suggested that homeschools should get a tax credit. But anybody familiar with the history of tax credits in this country knows that’s a sure invitation for the government to exercise more control over that school, because they see it as a benefit. So it’s a complicated issue. There are no simple answers. But I don’t think it’s wrong to pay your taxes. I think it would actually be wrong not to pay your taxes.

**Q18:**
Ron Johnson: The founders of our land assembled documents through the Constitution. How much was that the result of scriptural design, which we know they had, and how much of it was just an understanding of natural law that they saw in various lands they came from?

Pastor Tuuri: Ron, I’m just not sure I have the historical background to answer that thoroughly. Steve Samson is here—he’d be a good source of information. I tend to think that with much of what the founding fathers did, however, there was a heritage they received from people who were more self-conscious in their understanding of the resistance to Molech worship. And so because they had that heritage, maybe they didn’t have direct knowledge of the Scriptures as it relates to that entity, yet they built a system that had…

[Transcript ends]