Dennis Tuuri

Q1: Questioner:
How is it that in the Old Testament church the idolatrous among the righteous and in the New Testament church—and if I’m understanding that rightly, does that mean that we’re all from idolatry from a strong sense?

Pastor Tuuri:
Because he, you know, he goes on and I didn’t read the verse first middle of the chapter. He says gives all this teaching and he says flee idolatry. You know, you better watch it because you are going to follow God’s practices. I thought, you know, where Joseph is left and seducer, it’s that sort of a thing. You got to have that kind of sensitivity to moving away from idolatry. Is where pros to fall into that question.

Questioner:
I guess I’m the fruition of idolatry would be a process correct until it was completely known and in the open, right? Then of course it would be dealt with. But there are there are beginnings for small cries if you—

Pastor Tuuri:
Yeah. Exactly. Well, I thought I don’t I’m not sure this is perfect or not. One thing one of the illustrations I thought about when I was studying all this out was rock. It’s a little different but still there’s commonality and application to that. A great idol in our society. It is. We make very strong. We take the Lord’s supper and we make very covenant members. We listen to this stuff. It’s no big deal. Paul says watch it because it has become adopted as it were through the music. There is demonic influence intended and foolish.

Questioner:
That’s right. The seeds get planted and we end up in trouble.

Pastor Tuuri:
Well, along the same line, there’s a book that we have several of them in the library that John Knox’s book false worship deals with the comparison of a Catholic and probably Episcopal mass in contrast to the Lord’s table how the mass is sacrifice that is kind of asking for something it’s a petition to God whereas communion and the Lord’s table is reme.

Questioner:
That’s good. It’s been really helpful to me too because you know we have a family that are Catholic and grew up in that kind of a background always wonder should I go to church with them you know sometimes participating in a Catholic past which we now come to realize that it’s u is an idol practice clearly points that out where it is and why it is.

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Q2: Richard:
Number one, you made the point of we partake of the human nature of Christ and not the divine nature. Right. And I was wondering how you would relate that to Second Peter chapter 1 verse 4 where it says by which have given to us exceedingly great and precious promises that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature.

Pastor Tuuri:
I don’t know. I haven’t studied it.

Richard:
Second question. Have you studied that passage?

Pastor Tuuri:
No, I’m just fine.

Richard:
Second question is seems like a lot of a lot of times we hear this whole idea of not eating meat sacrifice idols because you’re going to cause your brother to stumble. It seems like a lot of times is what gets inserted in there is don’t use wine in communion because that well the whole idea is not what it means not that your brother gets offended that’s not what it means it means you cause him to sin you partake of that thing and he’s partaken of it in a in a sinful sense in other words kind of dividance he got a weak brother strong brother strong brother says okay there are no idols weak brother eats the SE but in his mind he sticks to those idols and he’s pulled into idology through that graduate thing about weak brothers strong rock and roll music you have we brother over say oh rock and roll is okay you know he has patience with rock and roll in terms of causing him to think about some of the sinful or demonic things involved you cause him to stumble so I guess to make an analogous situation we have to say that there’s a person who comes and who is afraid that if he takes a sip of wine, he’s going to become a drunker.

Pastor Tuuri:
But that usually isn’t the case. The case usually is, I don’t think it’s correct. It’s not that he’s afraid of stumbling. He’s offended. Okay? And the point is that the weak brother is going to be caused to stumble and sin, not offended over something. Okay.

Richard:
And then First Peter Second Peter 1—has anybody studied this passage?

Questioner:
I think it’s referred to as the communicable attributes. I was going to ask about that. Talk about nature as opposed to essence.

Pastor Tuuri:
We share in God’s attri. Yeah. The fact that we love for instance is a part to divine nature and I use the term nature in terms of essence I guess but confusion the right that was the whole point of Calvin was to keep the nature I guess we should do so.

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Q3: Questioner:
Just to add on to that what you’re saying about transubstantiation when I was Catholic church younger alter boys the atian time the thread and the wafer the holster whatever you call it if it ever dropped on the ground you could never touch it before boy or whatever the priest was the only one who picked it up and carried around this little tray or pel the crumbs fell out and I never realized that really taught them and that seems to be true. I don’t know if they still do that.

Pastor Tuuri:
The other another point that I was going to make about communications where they have the common cup they wipe it off. Well, what it’s done is has caused a division in the church. Some people won’t do that because they say for health reasons so that half of the church not partaking of the wine. So they don’t particularly leading into something.

Questioner:
Yeah. I think some of the reformers were pretty some of the modern good buildings too have stressed that they have talked about how it would be good to have the common cup for that picture again. But it’s interesting that Paul in the passage of 1 Corinthians 10 reverses the order. You know the order in every other part of scripture is bread first, then cup. Paul reverses it., and some people think the reasons he wants to give this teaching on the unity of bread, but he doesn’t make a big deal out of the common cup since we all drinking one cup. We’re all one thing. Instead of bread, do that., so I guess separate communion glasses is better than separate loaves of bread for each family.

Pastor Tuuri:
Not really, but spite of all that probably some churches some you thought the best picture was a common child, right?

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Q4: Questioner:
Did I understand hear you correctly that you’re not comfortable with most with a lot of evangelical community services? Did I not hear that?

Pastor Tuuri:
No, I did say that question. Okay. Could you just Well, again, it seems like, you know, what is communion? Communion is a picture of the covenant community on the basis of the shed blood of our savior at maker means to God’s law. The community is defined by law. It’s a covenant household. The community is a progressing advancing community that balance and that grows to fill the earth. These things are all, you know, that’s what communion is all about. And evangelical communion doesn’t have almost any of those things.

Questioner:
You know, it and I do think maybe just the churches I’ve been to, churches I’ve been to, it has been geared that you know you’re you’re there sitting in the same room but really the idea is you know you’re thinking about Jesus you don’t think about the people around you and you’re really focused you know individually so it seems like a lot of ways you know it runs contrary to many of the just basic teachings of community and I just and I guess I’m just saying that understanding if I’m understood this correctly 1 Corinthians 10 that much of the religious significance of a ritual act is defined by the group that is doing it.

Pastor Tuuri:
Then on the basis of that, I want to be more careful in my household before I take my family into what may well be a pretty unbiblical.

Questioner:
Well, I wonder because most of the time it seemed like a graveside service. I said most of the time I felt like I was at a graveside service for Jesus. And I couldn’t understand why that.

Pastor Tuuri:
Well, you know, in Western law and society on this chapter on community and communion or communion culture, one of those chapters talks about the fact that much of modern churches because of that emphasis coming in the necessity of communion as essential component community rather that it becomes the Catholics reactor have done the same thing. It’s just in a mystical sense instead of in a physical sense.

Questioner:
Yeah, that’s right. That’s why they’re a lot closer than you first think. They just don’t like the bumble jungle part, right? I thought it was interesting when I started first started really getting an appreciation for communion. I started going to the Episcopal church and they have a beautiful liturgy of communion and they focus on it with a real important sense. That’s when I was starting to get the importance of it. But they leave out the whole idea of the law. And so when you’re going into communion, you got all these people you’re sitting next to and you don’t know if this guy’s home essentials. Did they admit that kind of people in there? And so I remember going there and that was something that really bothered me is I’m really have this appreciation of what’s going on in this community and I don’t know who I’m sitting next to and I don’t know, you know, if they really love God. The unity is all it was so mystical that there was no tangibility.

Pastor Tuuri:
Exactly. Very good.

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Q5: Questioner:
Yes. I have study this out carefully either but just looking at the second Peter passage about the divine nature whatever verses two and three follow verse three says see the divine powers everything pertaining to life of godliness through the true knowledge seems like that flows into the idea of us being partakers of divine nature so it looks like the partaking of the divine nature comes from an orthodox. It says the true knowledge of him and orthodox understanding of God’s word and obviously that would be the commun the nature of God not some mystical essence that’s transferred to us through an understanding of orthodox truth.

Pastor Tuuri:
Yeah that’s good and also the last part of the verse read call us to glory and virtue.

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Q6: Questioner:
Right. The church said something earlier about baptism had intrigued me. I was baptized as a Roman Catholic and then later I became a Christian when I was about 18 years old and then I never really paid much attention to the seriousness of being baptized till I was about 25 or so. Then I was in a Reformed Baptist church and I went out to a lake and fully immersed and now I wonder are either of those baptism. I know James B. Jordan would say that that it’s not important orthodoxy of those who baptize me and at the time I would tend to go with the reformed Baptist being more orthodox obviously believe in salvation by grace through faith whereas you know Roman Catholics have that correct what is your view on that?

Pastor Tuuri:
Well you know most of us probably the same situation I found out a couple years ago that I was baptized and I was 5 years old Lutheran church and there’s little there’s no doubt that was my baptism the later baptism version of Baptist was superfluous in terms of Catholic baptism though., at this point I would I I am so against rebaptizing that I would that I would probably lean toward Jordan’s position.

On the other hand, there are very many men in the reformed church today and historically that have seen that not as a wild baptism. I mean Greg Bahnsen for instance baptizing Catholics and I would want to if you had a specific situation like that which we haven’t because most people have been agreement of but I would probably want to at least correspond to people as the reasons why they’re considered valid before I make my mind.

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Q7: Steve:
Would you say then that u that baptism is different than the Lord’s supper in terms of that? What’s the importance of horizontal? In other words, baptism is less horizontal.

Pastor Tuuri:
Right? That’s what that’s why said he baptizes kids on their own community. One of the things Jordan emphasized with B. This is something that God is doing, you know, not man. It’s something that God is doing. He is initiating into his kingdom. And in spite of some of the errors, on that basis, he felt that it was still valid, you know, in spite of the erroneous theology words formula, right?

Steve:
Yeah. In fact, that’s that’s kind of what he considered to be an Orthodox church, trinitarian church. And you know, if you think about it as covenant act the covenant act is defined by the written form of covenant as opposed to what the guy thinks too that I think Mark will do his I think we’ve decided now that Mark is going to present his name at any political party.