Dennis Tuuri

Q1

**Aaron Colby:** You said because of a lack of discipline in our spiritual life, we favor devotionalism and spontaneity to doctrine. What do you mean by devotionalism?

**Pastor Tuuri:** Yeah, I didn’t hear all of it, but I think you’re asking about—I made an assertion that a lack of discipline, I didn’t actually say in spiritual life, just in general, you know, leads to a kind of Christianity that we have in our culture now, which is tending more toward emotionalism, spontaneity as opposed to doctrine.

**Aaron Colby:** I thought you said devotionalism.

**Pastor Tuuri:** Oh, emotionalism. It’d be like demo… devo. Yeah. No, sorry. Does that make sense?

**Aaron Colby:** Yes, yeah.

**Pastor Tuuri:** I think it’s a quite telling comment by Rushdoony that, you know, everything’s been kind of redesigned because we can’t meet the old standards of a disciplined people that were raised in a disciplined fashion in a Christian culture in their family. And as a result, spirituality has become, you know, redefined in terms of spontaneity, no study.

Not to be self-serving here, but you know, the tales are told that when the culture was better at disciplining children, children could listen to sermons that were an hour long in America and recite back the thirty points of the outline in the middle of the week. And you know, it is difficult now to get anybody to listen to—I mean, this congregation is tremendous in putting up with, you know, sermons that are frequently fifty to fifty-five minutes or longer. But that’s very unheard of these days.

Just for the record, it’s not unheard of because some people preach shorter sermons and think that’s the way it should be. But an awful lot of the time everything’s dumbed down—the music and the sermons, etc.—because the audiences are simply undisciplined.

**Questioner:** For the record, there are some of us that think that you’re not preaching long enough.

**Pastor Tuuri:** Oh, yeah.

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Q2

**Aaron Colby:** My second question was—in the older set of notes, you said that as fathers, our responsibility towards our children is to protect them from us. What do you mean by that? And how do we do that?

**Pastor Tuuri:** Well, that was what I was trying to say is that, you know, the first thing that’s said in Ephesians—what is the specific wording? Well, I don’t have the text here. Could somebody tell me what verse six says?

**Questioner:** Don’t provoke your children to anger.

**Pastor Tuuri:** So the first instruction to the father is a warning to him not to act in his old Adamic nature and strike out at the child, which provokes them to anger. So you know, it’s interesting to me that fathers, of course, are guardians of families. But the one thing we’re told specifically to guard them from is our own improper parenting of them that creates anger, etc.

So that’s what I mean. And as for you—this is a good question for you—because you will get angry at that child at some point, and you will have to say, “No, Lord, help me to walk in the Spirit here and not in my Adamic nature.” Not that all anger is Adamic nature, but does that make sense?

**Aaron Colby:** Yes, yeah.

**Pastor Tuuri:** Was there a third?

**Aaron Colby:** No.

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Q3

**Monty (back):** I had not thought of that concept of provoking, but had thought more in terms of the tendency to give arbitrary instructions, which sometimes can be testing, sometimes can be just like personal hang-ups. Just wondering if you have any thoughts on that in terms of it does seem like it’s awfully easy to start placing expectations on a child that, while maybe having some limited value within a very narrow context, can easily end up seeming like a universal demand or expectation. I’m just not sure if the word “provoking” fits. It seems to me like it does. Wondering what you think.

**Pastor Tuuri:** Well, yeah, there’s probably all kinds of ways you could provoke your child to anger. I think though that—yeah, and probably one of the more significant things for dads to remember, you know, and it’s very difficult to do, but to remember that your child is a child. You know, I remember when I went to Multnomah School, in the Bible and the Christian education class, they would hand out, you know, typical vocabularies at different ages of children. When the Body Works exhibit came to town—Body World, I guess it was this time around—they had a section on the brain and development of the brain.

I mean, I think it’s very important to remember that this is a child. It’s not a little adult. It’s not an adult in a small body. The brain is different. Different things are happening in the brain. Their ability to understand and comprehend is different. And so if a father tries to treat his child more adult-like than the child actually can handle, that would also be a way. And I get what you’re talking about.

On the other hand, you know, as I said, I think it’s perfectly appropriate to give simple tasks that have no purpose other than a drill in obedience—to move the wood pile from here to there. I don’t think that should be seen as provoking a child to anger. Otherwise, that’s what God did in the wilderness. So James B. Jordan has a talk on this somewhere—the three ways that God disciplines or trains his child, Israel, in the wilderness. But I think that drill component is quite important.

So arbitrariness in and of itself is not a bad thing if the child is actually capable of doing the task. And of course, you know, as they get older, the more reason is part of the discussion, and the more they understand why you’re causing them to march here, there, and everywhere. You’re preparing them for warfare in their older life. Self-discipline and being, you know, the disciplined mind is the effective, mature, accelerated mind. Right? So what we’re doing is not restricting kids through discipline. We’re actually preparing them for a much more effective adult life, and as a result of being more effective, a bit more satisfying.

Thank you. One other thing I might mention—I’ll try to bring this text in when I talk on fathers later in June—but in First Thessalonians, Paul uses—I mean, it’s not just that Jesus sort of represents himself as a mother. Paul represents himself as a nursing mother to the Thessalonians. And then he goes on to talk about how he was as a father to them. So there’s a distinguishment of the mother and father role that Paul gives to the Thessalonians, that’s instructive as well for seeing the different roles of mother and father in the family. And I didn’t get to that today, too much stuff, but I’ll make sure I get to that later.

But in the meantime, you could read that section of Thessalonians.

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Q4

**Questioner:** I had one other observation. I came across something a few days ago that led to an analysis of a computer programming language—something that you would think of as very cold and dry. What you had commented about a generation that’s moving more in the emotional direction, just doing what they want and seeking immediate gratification, has really come through to me in a way that I wasn’t aware of. But I guess in the background this has happened—when I was learning how to program, it was pure, fairly pure science. And at this point, there are large parts of the industry where people are arguing just about what is fun or what is easy, and there’s no desire anymore to actually master a skill. They just want it handed to them on a platter, you know, in rainbow colors and flashing lights and whatever. They no longer want to have to work. And it was part of a much bigger discussion about qualifications for work and even entering college.

**Pastor Tuuri:** Yeah, that’s precisely what Rushdoony was getting at—that very thing. You know, Christine and I visited David Darden last Sunday. He was in the care center next to Lam Falls. Now he’s back at home. But, you know, he’s an older guy, right? He joined the Navy after Pearl Harbor. He’s one of the reasons, along with the rest of those guys, why we’re here today not speaking German and doing the “Heil Hitler” thing. So, you know, he’s to be honored.

Anyway, he’s laying in bed there. You know, he fractured his leg, fractured his arm, and he really can’t do anything with his left hand. So basically, for a week or two, a couple weeks, he was sitting in that nursing rest home or care facility. He couldn’t really do anything. He could put the speaker to the TV there and he would listen to religious broadcasting. But, you know, talking to him about how he coped with that, just being able to lay there—you know, the older guys were disciplined, and they were disciplined. You know, traditionally that was what happened in America. And as a result, he’s able to lay in a hospital bed for a couple of weeks that many of us would go stir crazy over. Could not stand it. Would have to find all kinds of electronic diversions and stuff. But he just figures, “This is what I got to do—lay here for a couple weeks,” and he does it.

So, yeah, it’s you’re right. Things have definitely shifted, and as you say, you can sort of see it in the workplace in all kinds of ways.

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Q5

**Questioner:** I have a comment about the Ephesians 6 text, the word “provoke” there. It’s my understanding that it’s only used there in the Greek and in the Septuagint. It’s only used in one place, and it is in Deuteronomy 32, where God says that he provokes his children to jealousy by moving his attentions to another nation. And so I think one of the direct applications of that Ephesians text is I think we ought to avoid comparing our children. “Look at how your brother is so good and how naughty you are.”

**Pastor Tuuri:** Yes. And I think that’s a specific application that those two texts—which probably these readers might have known about and would have kept in mind. So yeah, that’s good. Good. Thank you for that.

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Q6

**John S.:** Dennis, it’s John here. Yeah, a couple of practical suggestions for helping not provoke your kids to wrath. You talked about being arbitrary. You know, one of the things that I tried to do when we disciplined our kids when they were little is always tell them ahead of time how many swats they were going to get. So, you know, so I wasn’t just winging on them because I was mad. They knew ahead of time: “I’m getting two. I’m getting four. I’m getting my age,” whatever, you know. And I think the Foresters have that, you know, the “if-then” chart that also helps objectify those kinds of things. So I think that’s really useful in raising children so that they know ahead of time, “Okay, I’m getting three swats. Dad’s just not going to go until he’s done,” right?

So, and the other thing is that I think it’s also very useful when you discipline children to help them to see that their sin is not toward you. It’s toward God, ultimately.

**Questioner:** Didn’t hear that.

**John S.:** Their sin or their crime—their sin in the family is not toward you. It’s toward God, right? If they’ve not obeyed you, they’ve really disobeyed God. And so, you know, I think it’s important to help kids see that what they’ve done needs to be—they don’t just need to say sorry to me or their brother or sister. They need to say sorry to God as well and to turn in repentance to God and pray.

**Pastor Tuuri:** That’s good. Yeah. Thank you for that.

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Q7

**Doug H.:** Okay, Ace—I’m in the front. What Doug said was very helpful, but I was—because that’s kind of what I was going to ask. But this phrase “provoke your children to wrath”—is that not taken from God saying, you know, like the children of Israel provoked him to wrath? Are we supposed to look at it like that or, you know, what I’m saying, Doug?

**John S.:** Well, it’s in the same text because the Old Testament mentions many times that the children of Israel provoked God to wrath over and over again—the other way around in Ephesians, right?

**Doug H.:** Yeah. So is it supposed to point us back to that, or, you know, that’s kind of my question.

**Pastor Tuuri:** I don’t know. I mean, I suppose there’s nothing wrong with looking at that. I think it is, you know, like I said, it’s because God is, you know, an authority. So our children are—authority is over us. So yeah, you want to be careful not to turn an admonition to the father into an admonition to the children not to provoke the father to wrath. That would be putting it on its head. It’s a specific command to dads. And so dads have to, you know, be the ones who own up to it—that this is what they intend to do. And so yeah, I mean, you might think of the other thing, but I wouldn’t let that turn the verse on its head as a warning to kids not to provoke dad to wrath.

I actually should have said this: that Paul’s statement—”Do not do this thing which God did in Deuteronomy”—is interesting to me. So he’s saying this is one of the few cases where you can say God did it in the Old Testament, you know—that’s like him to do it, but he does it wisely. You’re not wise enough to do that. Don’t do that.

What’s the parallel text in Colossians say, John?

**John S.:** Do you know?

**Questioner:** Yeah. But to the dads—to the children, they become discouraged.

**Pastor Tuuri:** Okay. So there it’s a little different. It’s not provoking him to wrath. It’s provoking him to discouragement. So you’d have to factor that in somehow. Is it the same word?

**John S.:** Doug says it’s only used in Ephesians.

**Pastor Tuuri:** Yeah, I think it’s only used in the New Testament. But it might have been in the Colossians text, too. I’m not sure. It’s been a long time since I looked at it, and I don’t have the notes in my Bible at all.

**John S.:** Yeah. Okay. Anybody else?

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Q8

**Melody:** This is Melody back in the corner. You made some comments about husbands at home, kind of, you know, letting it hang out because it’s just family after all. And I was thinking about that, and I think that really applies to moms and wives as well. Yeah. The thought came to mind that, you know, especially moms who are home with their kids all day long—those who are homeschooling are spending hours and hours and hours with their kids. And it’s very easy to just start living like the old Adamic nature ourselves.

And I remember when Mira—when she used to bring Jesse and Leah over and we would homeschool together on Tuesday mornings. It was amazing how my kindness toward my children improved, and my communication skills. And it’s like everything changed. And it was really good for me to see that, because on Wednesday and Thursday when Mira wasn’t there, I would ask myself, “Why don’t I behave the same way on these days as I do when Mira is there? God is right here with me, and my fear of God should influence how I treat my children all these other days.” And I just found that really beneficial as a mom to share even one day a week with someone else like that, because it really raised my understanding of how my behavior changed just knowing someone was right there watching me.

**Pastor Tuuri:** Yeah, that’s a really excellent, very practical comment, and probably would be of much grace to many homeschoolers. That is one of the dangers of homeschooling—the isolation and the resulting sin that can happen. Ah, that’s quite good. Thank you for that. Anyone else? It’s probably time for our meal. Okay, let’s go eat.